FBA or FBM better to combat return fraud?
I am a smallish seller so I want to hear from you guys what’s better to combat return fraud FBA or FBM?
I have sold with both and had lying customers return on both. I've never fell victim to the "switcheroo" scam but with FBM customers always lie about not receiving the product despite extensive evidence and if i don't comply they file A to Z guarantee and get auto refunded and I can't do much and take $ hit but also on my account health. With FBA they return and get refunded but my inventory gets stuck in "researching or reserved" for MONTHS and I guess i lose there as well. Is it easier for buyers to scam on FBA or FBM?
FBA or FBM better to combat return fraud?
I am a smallish seller so I want to hear from you guys what’s better to combat return fraud FBA or FBM?
I have sold with both and had lying customers return on both. I've never fell victim to the "switcheroo" scam but with FBM customers always lie about not receiving the product despite extensive evidence and if i don't comply they file A to Z guarantee and get auto refunded and I can't do much and take $ hit but also on my account health. With FBA they return and get refunded but my inventory gets stuck in "researching or reserved" for MONTHS and I guess i lose there as well. Is it easier for buyers to scam on FBA or FBM?
14 replies
Seller_jTX9wdL1Ned8U
Amazon is your fraud seller on the FBA side of things. They've changed their reimbursement policy so they'll only refund half the cost you paid for the products. They will also charge you for it through disposal fees and then rail you with storage fees while they lose your inventory. Neither is a good option.
The best thing you can do is to require a direct signature, apply sealing tape, and have a photo taken at delivery. That way you have legit arguments when you go and fight them. Amazon will still award the customer but it'll be much harder for them with those things taken into account.
Seller_zGoDlPZLneGhF
FBM is the simple answer.
Here is the best way to protect yourself from INR claims.
1. Buy your shipping labels through Amazon (signature not required, but do as you please)
2. Ship your orders (carrier scans them) by the "ship by" date on the order details page.
Doing those 2 things protects your from INR claims, Amazon will fund them and the A to Z will not count against your ODR. We actually direct buyers who claim INR to open an A to Z claim immediatley, we are covered and you will be too.
For swticharoo returns:
Record your serial numbers and check your returns.
Charge a 100% restocking fee for "materially different" items being returned, take photos, submit the fee.
If refunded on first scan, open a safe-t claim. If denied continue to appeal until reimbursed.
Seller_w6aLwkKdfu3L0
FBM because you will have control over how you can process claims. FBA you're tied to how Amazon decides and you will have to take them back to actually investigate it. There's a lot you won't be able to do like with switcheroos it is heresay and conjecture and you just provide whatever you have, over time Amazon stops auto refunding certain buyers for whatever reason and you're able to do more and more as far as fees and things go etc. "Restocking" fees are a thing of the past as now Amazon wants products to be damage because the cost to ship, cost to return, and label to inspect and return to stock is something 3P sellers now have to absorb.
Plan for returns, make sure that the item makes sense that when you ship it and ship it back you're able to get your cost back after a few sales. If not, that item isn't worth it to sell if returns are high. If a fifth of what you ship is being returned for example, find something else because even if the margin is high, the expense on outbound and inbound shipping along with the condition of the item is a hassle to deal with. Some items do better and are likely not to be returns (low cost impulse buys), some have higher returns (clothing). High end electronics are the hardest since they can buy a used one from anywhere and claim you shipped them a damaged one and there is little that you can do to prove it (which is why people state record serial numbers with each shipment/label)
As for INR claims with FBM, use Amazon's Buy Shipping, ship on time (carriers must scan within 24hours of you shipping though if it shows delivered on time they might accept it was shipped on time even if the carrier didn't scan) and you should be covered. Amazon sees how often a buyer files an AtoZ and they will start denying it as we've seen AtoZ get denied and withdrawn by buyers when other buyers for similar situations get awarded.
Seller_R2dP7Hunjcdj0
Really?
Always?
You KNOW they are "Lying"?
Will you be willing to share your PROOF?
The ONLY "Evidence" that COULD be provided is a Signature at Delivery.
OR, conversely, IF you possessed unbroken video footage of the Package being Delivered beginning with the actual package Delivery and continuing through (whenever) the recipient actually received the package.
Is the Buyer Lying, or are they being Truthful?
Before you accuse anyone, even anonymously, you should learn ALL of the facts.
Try doing this: Go online and Google the phrase "Porch-Pirates", and discover a seemingly unending supply of Door/Porch video footage clearly displaying the package being STOLEN after Delivery.
And it should take you LESS than one second of consideration to understand that EVERY ONE of these Stolen Packages displayed as "Delivered" when Tracked.
Since YOU cannot PROVE that the Buyer is "Lying", WHY do think Amazon would not accept the Buyer's Claim?
What "Compliance" are you referring to? Issuing a Refund to the Buyer?
It seems possible that you have begun Selling on Amazon without truly understanding the RULES and Policies involved with Selling on Amazon.
Have you completed Amazon Seller University, available for FREE on this site? If not, you are walking through a Minefield wearing a blindfold.
Eventually, you will trip over an Amazon Policy that you were not even aware of, and be Suspended.
Wrong AGAIN!
You certainly CAN do something about this problem, and Amazon itself has offered you a way to protect yourself:
1) ALWAYS PURCHASE POSTAGE USING "AMAZON BUY SHIPPING"
2) ALWAYS MAKE SURE THE FIRST PHYSICAL SCAN OF THE OUTGOING PACKAGES ARE COMPLETED BEFORE THE CLOSE OF THE "SHIP-BY" WINDOW SCHEDULED BY AMAZON.
3) ALWAYS RESPOND TO A BUYER'S MESSAGE WITHIN 48 HOURS (LESS THAN 24 IS PREFERRED).
IF you follow these steps, AND the Buyer files an A-Z Claim for ANY PROBLEM ARISING FROM DELIVERY, Amazon will Fund the Claim themselves and Protect the Seller from any Retaliatory Negative Feedback on the transaction.
Next, try this little thought experiment:
Just how long do you imagine Online Purchases would continue IF the Buyer was held responsible for Stolen packages?
People are already wary when purchasing online, which is one reason Amazon is so successful, they have a long-established Brand and a Reputation for protecting the Buyer.
Have YOU ever purchased from Amazon? Have YOU ever had your package displayed as Delivered, and yet was not there?
I certainly have, both as a Buyer AND as a Seller.
As a Buyer: Two months ago I purchased an item from Amazon (FBA), and even though it displayed as Delivered, I NEVER received it.
Was it Stolen?
Was it Miss-Delivered to the wrong address?
Was it an internal system Error?
WHO KNOWS?
But I DO know that I received an immediate Refund when I reported INR to Amazon.
As a Seller: Just two days ago tracking displayed that a Return was Delivered "In or at Mailbox" at 2:23 pm Friday, but when I when to check the Mail, all that was there was one envelope, a Bill.
Was it Stolen?
Was it Miss-Delivered to the wrong address?
WHO KNOWS?
Now, on THIS particular event, the Buyer had already received a Full-Refund via RFS. Unfortunately, since we NEVER received the Return back, we are unable to provide the required evidence to Amazon to initiate a Safe-T Claim. IF we confront the Mail-Carrier, ALL available evidence shows that THEY completed their job. The Carrier is NOT responsible for the Package AFTER it has been Delivered.
ALL I can hope is that IF it was really Stolen form my Mailbox, the Thief will discover a badly broken Action Figure instead of anything Valuable.
A little bit of Karma there.
That, and in my past experience, a Safe-T Claim would ONLY recover approximately 20% of the original total Sale, so filing may not have even been worth the time and effort.
A Buyer Breaking a product AFTER it had been successfully Delivered, and then receiving a Full Refund via RFS, and then the Seller losing MOST of the original Sale amount... THAT is evidence of "Scam" Buyers taking advantage of the system! In the REAL (physical) world, the Rule is; "YOU BREAK IT, YOU BOUGHT IT".
But NOT on Amazon!
In OUR Business, RFS has proven to be THE avenue Scam Buyers utilize the MOST, by using an inaccurate Return Reason so as to Return an item that THEY THEMSELVES Damaged after receipt.
The Buyer gets 100% Refunded, the Seller gets a tiny fraction of the original Sale amount, and the Buyer goes on to continue this behavior since they never have to be responsible themselves.
TO AMAZON: RFS may have been a "Good Idea" for Amazon when first conceived, but in practice it has proven to be THE primary way a Buyer can avoid ANY consequences for "Returning an item in Materially Different Condition than Originally Shipped".
PLEASE REMOVE RFS AND RESTORE ALL RETURNS REFUNDS BACK TO THE SELLER.
Unless, of course, YOU (Amazon) want to "Fund" these Returns out of YOUR Pockets...
Amazon, you seem FAR TOO eager make US financially Responsible for Buyer Damage/Abuse.
Is this just another Pressure-Point you put on 3rd Party FBM Sellers to switch to FBA?
Can you at least imagine how WE have been made to feel that this is indeed your strategy?
Considering how I champion the Amazon Seller Protection Policy all-over this Forum, is it too much to ask for an Amazon MOD to reply concerning the THEFT that Amazon willingly allows with the RFS Policy?
Seller_WtOwWhtSrFjva
FBM since FBA accepts returns for stuff returned as yours even though it is not yours. They accept it back and charge you every time for the return no matter what the reason is.
And there is a problem even getting products received these days.
So many complaints that I wonder why people still use FBA. It only took them saying I sent three empty packages, even though I had the official weight invoice from UPS, for us to decided that FBA was not for us anymore.
We used to own FBA in the seed category.
Seller_qgkaa9vNYZ46q
Your best way to combat fraud is to chose another selling platform, when I did all my fraud and return scams went to zero! Go figure. I'll gladly take the lower/slower sales volume to NOT have to deal with this sh*t show every day. Getting my time back by NOT selling on this tail chasing t*rd platform, has allowed me to scale up on other platforms.
Seller_iobipI6xASRkh
FBA you are not going to get refunded anything above the actual cost of the product (forget shipping and import taxes) So on top of their return fees and storage fees you are losing a lot of money on scam sellers.
FBM it is a fight to get Amazon to side with you on claims. If there is no serial number trying to prove an item is used and they just upgraded to a new one is a dead end.
So really it is about the best situation for you. If your distributor is in the US and the invoice already has the import taxes rolled in and all that other 'fun' stuff, then FBA is a lot easier for reimbursements of fraud. You take a few pictures of the product you received, the RN#, the packing slip and shipping label, and sometimes have to point out where it is fraud (like show that your branding is missing), and they credit you for the loss. If you are buying straight from overseas then you will lose money on FBA so FBM might be a better choice.
Xander_Amazon
SD Capital - thanks for kicking off the discussion.
Folks, as a reminder please keep the conversation respectful towards one and other.
Seller_R2dP7Hunjcdj0
To @Xander_Amazon,
Thank you for your "Warning", but I find your reply to be hurtful and offensive, and fundamentally ignoring the context and Facts provided.
What follows here is my attempt to reason with you, and to explain where you might be misunderstanding me, and yjsy you may even be allowing yourself to be "Used" by a few disgruntled Sellers who simply did not LIKE the contents of my Post, and who have been made even more disgruntled by the fact that they cannot actually COUNTER the facts of my Post.
What you read to be my "Frustration" is a completely incorrect assumption on your part. I am NOT "Frustrated" with the OP at all.
However, I AM interested in setting the record straight concerning this matter, so that any NEW Sellers who might read the contents of the OP and assume that it is at ALL "Correct", can instead be told the Truth.
You should be on my side here in this matter, unless YOU, yourself, ALSO believe that "FBM customers always lie about not receiving the product" (which I HIGHLY doubt). :)
This IS the Amazon Rule, but is completely incorrectly applied to my Post.
Here are the reasons:
First, there IS no "Continuing dialogue", as this was a single Post in reply to the OP, and your reply is the ONLY reply I have received, so by definition, there WAS no "Dialogue" of any kind, "Continuing" or not.
No, it seems that at least SOME "Members" of this "Community" just don't like to hear the message that NOT ALL INR Claims are Fraud, committed by Liars who are Stealing from the Sellers.
Surely you must realize that Posting something that does not agree with the OP premise, False as it may be, MAY possibly result in at least some "Complaints" from those who just "Feel Better" by making everything Bad be due to someone ELSE'S fault.
Secondly, COUNTERING the premise that "FBM customers always lie about not receiving the product" is ABSOLUTELY PRODUCTIVE. Allowing such False Information to stand unchallenged is completely UNPRODUCTIVE. Surely you can agree with that?
Third, since email has no "Tone", I find it FAR more effective to use Italics, Bold and ALL-CAPS for certain single words to add the appropriate emphasis. This is a Literary device, and was NOT invented by ME. "Caps Lock Yelling" would be MULTIPLE words together in sentences or more. This is NOT what I did, or have EVER done on this Forum. I am sorry you did not understand this, but I Thank you for allowing me to explain the difference to you now.
Censorship is a DANGEROUS Tool, and can often be abused, especially by those in the wrong when they are confronted by the Truth. Am I not part of this "Community"? What Free Speech Protections may I enjoy? Amazon provided the BOLD, ITALICS, and UNDERSCORE precisely to AID in Clear Communication, and you are allowing my use of them to be a sufficient reason the Threaten me? Why does Amazon provide these tools IF we are not allowed to use them?
Why should ANY member have the power to Censor another poster simply because they don't LIKE what the Message is? Just how MANY members of "The Community" does actually it take to Censor someone who is only stating the Truth?
I understand being respectful, but this can be VERY subjective, and I believe I WAS being "Respectful", but I was also being clear and definitive as to the Error of the OP's premise, and the danger such a premise could present to Sales on Amazon.
Furthermore, IF you are going to Threaten "Disciplinary Action", then there should be a Clear Definition of where the "Line" is., and it should NOT be a matter of Semantics.
And for the record, I consider calling ALL FBM Customers THIEVES and LIARS to be INCORRECT, and a FAR MORE egregious offense than my clearly explaining just HOW and WHY that posted premise was, and is, completely WRONG.
Letting such False Information go unchallenged is FAR more disrespectful to ALL of us, Amazon included.
This Forum already has a huge list of "Forbidden Words" that cannot appear here, and while I strongly countered the False information in the OP, I was not disrespectful, Mean or cruel. I was simply factual and Clear.
Now, as to the MAIN point of your reply:
For the Record: EVERY post I EVER make on this Forum is designed for ONE purpose only: To HELP Sellers avoid making mistakes on Amazon, mistakes that can often prove costly for them. (Punctuation intended for emphasis).
The post you are referring to is exactly that, an attempt to Clear the record with the ACTUAL facts, and the provable Reality of the situation. I never used inappropriate language, nor made any personal attacks. I simply made it CLEAR to ALL who might read the OP, that the OP's stated premise was simply NOT TRUE, and then I even went on to "Show my work" by explaining exactly HOW the OP was wrong.
However, since my Post CAN be read as "Pro-Amazon", and perhaps even be mistaken to be "Pro-Buyer Theft via Fraud", it is NOT surprising in the least that at least SOME Sellers simply "Don't like the Message", and have run to Teacher to Complain.
And since they cannot challenge the FACTS of the Message, instead they come to complain about the "Tone"?
IS Amazon OKAY with allowing the message of "FBM customers always lie about not receiving the product " and that Amazon does NOTHING to Help Sellers? I would like to imagine that they are NOT.
Where is your reply supporting the Facts that I displayed? One would expect Amazon to understand when a Seller is posting FALSE information, such as: "FBM customers always lie about not receiving the product", which was the heart of his Post, and at the heart of my response, and to defend MY Post, not to attack it (and threaten ME) with a simple attempt to use Semantics as a "Club" when they are unable to counter my facts.
The "Thumbs-Down" button is completely misused on this Forum. This Forum is for sharing information, not for voting on which "Cat Videos" you "Like" or "Dislike". The ONLY criteria for these "Buttons" should be "Is the info is CORRECT or NOT?"
Once again, the "Thumbs-Down" vote should ONLY be used when the provided information is WRONG, and NOT just because you don't like "The Message". Down-Voting something just because you don't like it is a form of "Trolling" the Poster, and of outright Censorship.
It appears that Amazon seems to be FAR more interested in protecting the "Feelings" of a Poster, EVEN IF WHAT THEY POSTED IS INCORRECT, than in actually correcting the record for ALL "Community Members".
IF you read the post I was replying to, and then read MY post, you will discover that everything I stated is the absolute TRUTH. The original Post that I was responding to was stating "Fiction" and presenting it as absolute "Fact", and I cleared the record, and did so with provable facts.
What's more, the ONLY reason to "Flag" the Post is simply a case of "Shooting the Messenger". This is a VERY common occurrence, especially in this Forum. It was not invented here, but BOY it is abused here!
Furthermore, this was one of MANY recent rants on this Forum claiming that "Buyer''s are Scamming them" whenever a Buyer reports a package INR, and most of these posts go on to accuse Amazon of being Complicit in allowing their Buyers to commit Theft and Fraud.
Is the purpose of this Forum simply to allow these factually False "Rants", even IF they contain incorrect information, or is this Forum intended to be a place of knowledge and experience that other Sellers can learn from?
I have taken a great deal of time and effort in an attempt to come to an understanding between us here. I hope you now have a better understanding of the intentions my Post, and that this matter has now been resolved.
Seller_wijq1XyX4kiyE
A lot of customers taking advantage and get items for free ,telling amazon there's empty box or item missed. Also It's became popular and Amazon need to do something with it.
